Dining across the divideLife and styleDining across the divide: ‘I’ve never come across a Republican. I wish I’d got more out of him’
An anarchist and a conservative American Christian discuss transgender rights, Israel and Palestine, and refugees. Will they agree on anything?
Fabrice, 49, Birmingham
Occupation Artist and charity worker
Voting record Comes from an ultra-left anarchist tradition, so has never voted
Amuse bouche Once interviewed Ed Sheeran, who was a patron at the teaching institution he lectured at. Says it was like chatting to someone in the pub, except he’s sold 20-odd million records
Marty, 31, Birmingham
Occupation Working part-time in Waitrose while studying theology and serving in his church
Voting record Is a US citizen, so can’t vote in UK elections. In the US, tends to vote Republican, though abstained for Trump versus Biden
Amuse bouche Is learning ancient Greek so he will be able to read the Christian scriptures in the language in which they were written
For starters
Fabrice I was expecting someone very different from me, which I got. He was a nice guy: American, quite conservative, Christian. I respect that. He was not blazing, gung ho, crazy; he was really reserved.
Marty Good sense of humour, warm. It ended up being a friendly, lovely chat.
Fabrice I had the squid rings and the beef fillet. Marty had soup as a starter and lasagne as a main – very straightforward.
Marty I also had a tiramisu.
The big beef
Fabrice We talked about transgender rights. For him, it’s a bit difficult, it’s quite abstract, so I brought it back to examples from real life. Rishi Sunak’s speech a few weeks ago, where he said, “A man is a man, a woman is a woman,” that has consequences for kids going through this: they get bullied, they despair.
Marty My position is complicated. I’m quite an old-fashioned conservative, I believe in small government, so on one level I’m very happy for people to do what they want with regards to bodily transformations. But I have, from a Christian perspective, a recognition that we are inherently male and female, it’s a biological thing. Whereas Fabrice would be happy to say: if you’re a man trapped in a woman’s body, then whatever.
Fabrice If someone’s freedom is not impeding yours, why would you deny them theirs? It has no effect on you. How could you prefer a situation where kids are trying to kill themselves? He didn’t take the bait, he just said, “I don’t agree.”
Marty He felt that it was compassionate to allow people to do these things. Whereas I think compassion would be having the guts to tell people they’re taking the wrong path.
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Sharing plate
Marty When we talked about Israel and Palestine, we were both like, “This whole thing is a mess.” His family is very sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.
Fabrice Religion came up in other conversations, but not head on, nothing controversial. I’m a complete atheist: I’ll never understand what makes Christians vote for Trump, which Marty did in 2016, but he’s a single-issue guy. He wanted the supreme court filled with conservative judges to overturn Roe v Wade.
For afters
Fabrice Because I work with refugee kids, I see the difference between people like me, who decided to come here – who made a choice – and people who don’t really want to come. There’s no need to criminalise them. There’s no need to have people dying crossing the Channel, crossing the Med. They’re human beings, first and foremost. We’ve been trying the repressive approach for 80 years; it doesn’t work. Why don’t we try something else?
Marty Fabrice is very leftwing, but more libertarian than some: I think he wants open borders. He was lamenting the fact that countries like the UK or France are safe and developed, but people can’t move there to enjoy those benefits. I was saying: “We have to draw the line somewhere. If you had unrestricted movement, it would be impossible to maintain those standards.”
Takeaways
Fabrice It was interesting to have the point of view of a non-liberal American. The few Americans I know are at least Democrats. I’ve never come across a Republican. I wish I’d got more out of him, but I didn’t want to corner the guy.
Marty I think sometimes we agreed on stuff because he’s a little bit older. If I’d been speaking to a liberal of my own generation, I doubt we’d have found so much common ground.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
Fabrice and Marty ate at Sapore in Birmingham
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